Posts by moggy lover

24

Did Rutherford love his wife?

by VM44 in

did rutherford love his wife?.

if he did, why did he reside in brooklyn, while she lived in california?.

if he did, why during the times he did visited california he resided at beth sarim in san diego, when his wife, mary, resided in the los angeles area, where his son malcolm also lived?.

moggy lover

The verdict of history is clear: No. He did'nt love his wife, I mean.

But then he did'nt love anybody.

Except himself.

Cheers

15

is there any such thing as a church or group that gathers together to study the bible and share information without ramming it down everyone's throad and trying to disfellowship anyone who doesn't agree?.

i'd love to eventually attend a bible study group where an exchange of ideas can be had without everyone getting offended or defensive.

sort of like here, but different.

moggy lover

There are several such groups that are around, and by searching, I am sure that you will find one. In fact, very few groups are like the WTS in that they lay down the law to everyone in the fellowship, on pain of expulsion. Thess ones are cultic, and to be avoided.

However, do not be disappointed in that there is no group that permits TOTAL uncorformity. Every fellowship, like ours, which is Baptist, has at least a base list of teachings which are not negotiable.

These may for instance either be Trinitarian, or Unitarian. [I am unaware of any fellowship that allows both doctrines, except enlightened ones like JWD]

Charasmatic or Non [ie tongue speaking, or not] There are a few who don't make an issue of this, but these are rare.

The Integrity of Scripture. [ie there will be those who teach that the Bible is inerrant, and those who will teach otherwise]

But other than this there is a wide divergence of opinion granted an individual to interpret Scripture according to his/her leading

Good hunting

Cheers

131

This forum

by jw in

.

can you people honestly say gods spirit is guiding you?].

i think not!

moggy lover

Hi, JW , Thanks for your insightful post.

However, I feel that either inadvertantly, or deliberately, you are confusing us with vocabulary that has multiple meanings, all of which need greater clarity. Your initial query was : Do we believe that "God's Spirit" is "guiding" us.

I am not sure that is relevant one way or another, since we certainly do not consider ourselves to be EXCLUSIVE spokespersons for God.Like you, all of us are attempting to experience the divine, but in our own way, and we share this experience in verbal, not spirit, communication. So really, it does not MATTER whether this is "Holy Spirit" guided or not. And I am not sure why it should concern you anyway.

However, since you are the one who brought it up, maybe you can help us by DEFINING the terms you used.

What exactly do you mean by "God's spirit"? Are you referring to a THING, like an energy, or force, or even a portion of butter, we use on our toast? or are you referring to a Person, who like God CAN guide us? You see, if you mean the Holy Spirit is a THING, - you - not us will have to explain how this thing can "guide" any one. Get me?

Very often, the NT refers to the Holy Spirit as "speaking", well, does the Holy Spirit speak? How can it, if it is a thing? A radio "talks" but at no time can we describe a radio as "Conversing" with anyone, since it has no volition. To speak, one needs volition, thats why animals cannot speak.

Also what do you mean "guide"? You seem to imply that we believe the Holy Spirit is "BEHIND" this Forum, if that is the case, this isn't "Guiding" is it? To guide, one must LEAD, right? How in your opinion, does the Spirit LEAD?

See, once you explain these things to us, then, and only then, we can have an intelligent conversation, Get me?

Cheers

10

Looking for input on the "Rapture" doctrine...

by Jamelle in

saw a documentary on tv this weekend about it.

have heard about the "left behind" series of books that deal with this belief.. one thing that caught my attention about the belief in the rapture was that it seemed very dark.

it seems to focus more on the scary things that are talked about in revelation than the message of peace and love that i admire in the teachings of christ.. the other thing that bothered me is that it seemed similar to the witnesses in that you have to be "saved" or you are going to die.

moggy lover

The WTS has a rather interesting "spin" on this subject. They suceed in perverting the message of Paul at 1 Th 4:13-18 with such dogmatic boldness, that they make him mean the very opposite of what he is actually saying.

Well what IS he saying? He is saying that when '"The Parousia of the Lord" occurs, there will be two "kinds" of believers: those who are dead, and those who are alive. As far as the dead are concerned, they will "rise" - and as for the ones who are alive, they will be "caught up TOGETHER" with those who have risen, and the two groups will then be "always with the Lord"

Does it say anything about those who are living as having to die? No of course not. That in fact is the point of his revelation. "We who are ALIVE will be caught up" To any intelligent reader of Paul's words the meaning is obvious.

But not to those who wrote the "[human] Reasoning on the Scriptures" book. There is an extended discussion on this section of Scripture on pgs 312-317 and they go to almost absurd lengths to [mis]interpret Paul's words. The WTS insists that at this section of the Bible, Paul is NOT discussing the "rapture" but the resurrection. So that, Paul is saying that EVERYONE, at the time of going into heaven, MUST die. [When the point of his discussion is that the do Not have to] As the various members of the "anointed" die, they are instantly conveyed to their heavenly abodes, which is the "rapture" Now since we know that Christ "came" in 1874, this resurrection has been taking place since 1878 [3 and a half years later] OOPS! What AM I saying???

I forgot - Joe Hoover goofed when he gave his revelation to the Wt society. We now know that Jesus came in 1914, so this "first resurrection" has been occurring since 1918. Till that time, those who were dead had to wait. Then in 1918 they were resurrected as a group without any fuss, invisibly, of course.But now when a member of the "anointed" dies, he does not need to wait, instantly he is conveyed, at death, to heaven. So this "rapture" is a process [according to the WTS] which has been unfolding for the past 88 years, and is not an event, which is what Paul describes it as. And the Lord does NOT descend, the dead go up to him instead. One by one, and not "at the same time" the dead "anointed" will be resurrected

Rather than this event being described as a process, Paul clearly says it happens "at the same time" [KIT vs 17] So unless Paul SAID " at the same time" but MEANT the very opposite, ie "at different times, over at least 88 years" There is no possible way the WTS "explanation" can be sustained.

Incidently, WHO "descends" [vs 16]? We have four J versions of the NT: J7, J8, J13, J14, who say it is YHVH.!! The WTS "translates" these same versions at vs15 as "jehovah", but judiciously ignores these same versions in the next verse!!

Cheers

26

If you could go back in time, how far would you go?

by JH in

jw
friends

.

i'm not talking about going back 200 years now, what i mean is if you could go back to when you were younger, how far back would you go, and re live that period of time up to today, maybe in order to fix something that still bothers you today, or just for the joy of living it again.. if i could go back in time, i'd like to be 17 or 18 years old old again, go back to college, follow a different course, meet plenty of young poeple, party in the bars once more, and re live the joy of having young parents and having a full life in front of me.. how about you, how far back would you go?

moggy lover

If I could go back, I would like to go back to the 1840s , when I could meet my heros, Sherlock Holmes, where every night was foggy, and Alain Quatermain, whose life was a continuous Ripping Yarn.

But <sigh> since you won't permit that, then I'd settle for the 60s: Kennedy, Woodstock, The Beatles, Turning on, tuning out, making out, making love, not war, and best of all, vinyl records. And like all young people, I was immortal

Cheers

53

Official GB spin on decreases. (serious)

by yesidid in

jw
friends

i just received an email from a faithful witness, re their co's visit.

"our co just came back from two months co training.

he said there were two important things headquarters want the brothers to know:.

moggy lover

Like all good prophets of the cynical school, the WTS covers all its bases:

When there is war - The end is near!!

When peace is declared - There you are, we told you so, the end is near!!

When the work increases - the end is near!

When it falls off - There you are, we told you so, the end is near!!

How can they lose?

Cheers

12

During the assembly did you ever notice ... ???

by The_Replacement in

growing up as a kid in the 70's (and early 80's), did you ever notice at the assembly that there was always someone who had a tape recorder on stage and was taping the whole assembly.

are these tapes around today, generally i would love to hear some talks that were given before 1975 and see how many brothers said something big was going to happen, because we all know the watchtower never said that !!!

(yeah right).. any websites that might have a few of these or other interesting topics ???.

moggy lover

Unfortunately, I threw all my tapes out, an act I now severly regret. The only one I can remember recording was a talk in the mid-70s called "Serving with Everlastng Life in View"

But yes, there was a lot of us who made tapes of various sessions. I believe this is discouraged now

Cheers

22

When did JW,s stop considering the nation of Israel Gods chosen people?

by moomanchu in

.

moggy lover

Right upto 1925 the WTS was advocating the return of the fleshly Jews to Palestine. It was in that year that Rutherford piblished his "Comfort For the Jews" book, incidently, after the "Harp of God" his second book.

Evidently, by 1929 and the publication of the book "Prophecy" the Judge, meaning the WTS, had reversed himself, and "Spiritual Israel" was being talked about.

Cheers

186

God led me to the JW congregation.

by jw in

i rented a house in the late !970's and the contents in the home were given to me.. it happened to be books: ( making my life happy, revelation, children bible stories, listening to the great teacher ) i was enjoying the reading.. -----------------------------------.

a few years later began to notice awake magazines in doctor offices, and other public places and read them and enjoyed them.. ------------------------------------.

late 1980's my 7th son was 2 yrs.

moggy lover

Hi, jw, I am genuinely glad that you have been able to find spiritual fulfillment in your life. It is your right, and no person or group of persons acting in concert can relieve you of that.These values we share did not come by acident, nor were they assumed to be derived by some mysterious alchemy of natural development. One of the most fundamental Rights of Man, is the right to worship God in the path of your choice.

But those rights had to be fought for on the field of combat. I feel proud that my forebears [and yours probably] loved you so much that they were willing to spill their blood to ensure the survival and triumph of liberty. At that same time, when others answered the call, the JWs, as personified by the then President of the Wt movement, were mouthing empty and hysterical phrases designed to be sensationalist rather than edifying. The bigoted nature of those nonsensical pratings, made in the 40s, are now so utterly embarrasing, that his sucessors no longer even acknowledge them.

Since the WTS, being a closed system of authority, will not permit any undue curiosity on your part, you imperil your standing in the very system you owe aliegance, by giving evidence of reading previous comments made your religion. Your religion is one that neither permits nor encourages scrutiny. I sincerely hope that you do not discover that the Wt system is nothing but a raw instrument of power, excercised by flunkies to ensure the supremacy of a mysterious elite calling themselves the GB.

To maintain your continued existence in the JW movement, my suggestion to you would be to do EXACTLY what the leadership tells you to do, without either comment, or dissent. But, and this is a big but, PRETEND that you are doing those things because you thought of them.

And you can rest assured that when the torch of liberty needs to lifted up again in the face of an assault from our adversaries, we will be there to protect your right to worship the God of your choice.

Those who least appreciate freedom are those who do nothing to safeguard it.

Cheers

11

Daniel Book

by 5thGeneration in

jw
friends

my super zealous father told me the other day how he just "loved" studying the daniel book for the second time.

he got "so much more out of it this time".

holy crap, give me a break!.

moggy lover

Hi, Zico, and welcome to the Forum

Ever since its founding back in 1879, with the publishing of the very first WT magazine in July of that year, the WT Society has indulged in all kinds of ignorant and extremist speculations, passing these off as "prophesies" One of their favourite pieces of theological nonsense is the way they have portrayed their [mis]understanding of the "King of the North"

Back in 1891, we have the first recorded description of this King made by the WTS: the publication entitled "Thy Kingdom Come" on pgs 39, and 40, identified this "King" as none other as Napoleon!! That was straight from the mouth of Joe Hoover, and if you respectfully disagreed, you were expelled from the "True" Fellowship.

This "Truth" lasted till 1942, when it was discovered that the same Joe Hoover had goofed, and it was'nt really Napoleon after all. It was in fact Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany along with his WW1 allies, Austo-Hungary and theTurkish Empire [The New World pg 324] The light was of course getting brighter, and the truth was getting "truther", so this was finally IT. Again if you disagreed you were out on your arse, mate. Why? Because this was Joe Hoovers WORD!

Naturally, with Joe Hoover "truth" is a flexible commodity, rather like being in a boat that is tossed about in the waves of different teachings, because in 1958, the "King of the North" changed yet again!! In the book, "Your will be done" we have these gems of information: "Jehovah's angel foretold further agression by the COMMUNIST King of the North, before his end at Armageddon" pg 300.

"The Soviet Union, the Communist power that since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world dominion as its aim to this day" pg 278.

The WTS were such marvelous prophets of God ["Jehovah provides his loyal servants with advance knowledge about this system's end" WT mag 1984, pg 8] that they were completely unaware that the King of the North, which was supposed to last right up to Armageddon, had in fact collapsed.

As they say, three strikes and you are out. Their prophetic "record" is a dismal ZERO.

This did not, however prevent them from writing another largish 11 page article in the WT mag in 1993, where they finally admitted that Joe Hoover did'nt know the identity of the "King of the North" - "Who is the King of the North? WE CANNOT SAY" [pg 22]

Truly did the prophet Jeremiah prophesy regarding these arrogant, selfserving and deceitful men " They are prophesying FALSELY in my name, is the utterance of Jehovah, I DID NOT SEND them" [Jer 27:15]

If you need more information, there is an excellent article written by BJ Kotwall, at "Shauns Research Site" on the web.

Cheers